Vinyl decks - pitch running out - anyone else had this problem - advice needed... Turntables / CD Decks Discuss Vinyl decks - pitch running out - anyone else had this problem - advice needed... in the DJ Equipment Forum forums; Hi I use a pair of Ministry of Sound (yes I know) direct drive decks which I believe were manufactured by either Numark or Gemini - I forget which. Anyway, I'...

[DJDaylightRobbery]

Hi I use a pair of Ministry of Sound (yes I know) direct drive decks which I believe were manufactured by either Numark or Gemini - I forget which.

Anyway, I'm finding mixing a constant battle. I have DJ'd now fow 18 years on and off, so my mixing skills arent really in question BUT I'm finding that frequently for example in the first 1/3 of a track I will have a perfect beat match between the two tracks - this will wander out very slightly.

Acceptible - it needs a slight tweak so I'll alter the pitch by the slightest amount (my decks have digital readout and often this is less than 0.01%) - it will stay in again for the say, mid 1/3 of the record - then it will run out again - all too often back to where the settings were before.

Is it the vinyl?
Do people recording vinyl do this on purpose - I notice on some tracks more than others that the same predictable behaviour of tracks "running out" then "back in" sync again - particularly towards the end making mixing a nightmare.

Or

Is it the decks?

When I check the strobe against the platter all appears well, there is no apparent "running out at all".

I would rush out to buy a pair of Technics if I heartily believed this would solve the problem but I'm not convinced.

Maybe CDs is the way to go. Anybody have this problem on CD at all.

Looking forward to your responses.

Frustratedly.

Rob.

[DJDaylightRobbery]

**UPDATE**

OK so I just took 2 x identical records and mixed them one on each deck.
I quartz locked the decks so they should be in sync.
No run out throughout the entire track so the decks are spot on.
Therefore the conclusion is that the vinly recordings are recorded with a variation in pitch.
I would still like to know if anyone else regularly encounters this problem again with both vinyl and CD please.

Thanks.

Rob.

[littlepete]

It could be both mate. Even Technics dont have 100% accurate pitch control although its hardly noticeable on them. The reason for the record changing pitch now and again is becuase of wow and flutter I think. The more expensive the deck the less wow and flutter it shoud have. The cheapest decks have about 0.25% whereas techs have 0.01%

e.g look on the link below and you will see in the specs the wow and flutter:

DJ Store | DJ Equipment | Numark TT200 Direct Drive Turntable :: £164.00

[DJDaylightRobbery]

Thanks Pete,
I had read up on this previously and what you're saying certainly seems to be right.
Frustrating though that I can put two identical records on and they stay perfect all the way through.
Would wow and flutter not come into effect in that scenario?
Currently contemplating a set of SL 1200 MK 2 s - in your opinion would these be noticably better that the Ministry of Sound TT03's in accuracy given the test that I have already ran above?
There's also still the question as to whether this also happens with CDs if I were to switch my main mixing to these - and have you had experience of vinyl running out at such a horrific rate? - This can be as much as +/- 0.3% according to the digital readout on the decks!

[tOM]

i would say sl12oo's will be noticably better

however it's all part of the joy of playing vinyl imo - you have to be on the ball with it

generally there is no variation in pitch recorded to vinyl, just cause you ran two of the same records quartz locked doesn't mean its the records fault how do you know your decks run exactly at the same time?

[littlepete]

yep i have when i had some cheap decks and also my mate had some numark tt02s or something like that, the old ttx's basically. They were the same as yours i think as your decks will be numarks with a M.O.S badge on them. They were really bad for it, it was frustrating when you had a smooth mix on the go then suddenly the records would be out by miles.
Cd players are a different story as its completely digital. Different models have pitch increments of 0.1%,0.05% or 0.02% where obviously 0.02 is the best. But unlike turntables you dont get the wow and flutter with cd players so the song will stay at constant speed. I think lol.

[DJDaylightRobbery]

Fantastic thanks guys.

I have bought a set of 1200 mk2s and will do my next podcast on these and see how it goes.

It's really frustrating - I used to have a set of 1200s years ago and never recalled having a problem (other than my own errors). However with the MOS decks I can spend the time it takes to play a 12" TWICE before getting a happy enough medium to mix with, and even then it's not consistent.

Should have bought Technics to start with...lesson learnt.

In respect of CD decks which will be my next move I believe Pioneer CDJ 1000s are the way to go?

Again I had CDJ 200s a few years ago and was very impressed with them.

Is there muh difference between the various models in the range (ie 800 vs 1000) - I dont know if there's a 400 or 600 model?

[littlepete]

there is a 400 model which hasnt been out too long. I own a cdj200 and think its good but if you can afford the cdj1000 id go for that anyday

[jfunk]

Some records do have a " dirty pitch shift " in them which makes them a bitch to mix. Also if the pitch controll on the decks is a bit warn or dirty the the pitch will slide a bit sometimes.

The reason the beat did not go out when you had the quarts lock on both decks is because it was locked. When you move the pitch sliders away from the center ( the lock position ) you are relying on the variable resistors in the slider which can be a bit iffy on some desks. One of the places I play they have some realy old 1210s which have been played hard and they were a night mare to mix on untill I confinced the owner to get the pitch controll replaced.


On a side note - - If you do have a record with a pitch shift in it towards the end. It is a real laff the play it as you hand over to somone else in a back to back battle

[DJ_Nik_Gnashers]

The answer given above is spot on.

If you quartz lock your turntables at 0% then the pitch is controlled by a crystal which keeps the frequency absolutely bang on 0% pitch. When you unlock this and use the pitch slider, then you are relying on the resistance of the potentiometer. Cheap turntables are pretty bad at providing you with a smooth continious curve of adjustment from the middle 0% to either the +maximum or -maximum adjustment.
Having used Gemini, Numark, stanton, Vestax & Technics turntables, the Technics are the most accurate imo. Having +or- 8% adjustment is more accurate then +or- 10% obviously, because the pitch sliders are all the same length in different turntables - then the more adjustment available, the more twitchy it is, ie it will adjust more for the same amount of movement.
If your pitch slider is dirty inside, that will make the adjustment irregular, in which case you could try cleaning them. The easiest way I have found, is to buy some really cheap/thin cotton buds (from a poundshop), bite the end so it is flat, then make a bend just before the actual cotton bud bit, spray some electrical contact cleaner on the bud (servisol super10 for example) and poke it gently into the slit where the pitch knob moves. By pressing gently the end should bend over and get into the inside edges of the pitch slider (where the tracks are that actually control the pitch circuits resistance). Move the bud up & down and use a few buds gently, if the buds are black when you slide them out of the slit, then you may notice a considerable difference in pitch accuracy afterwards.
The best way to clean the pitch slider though is to take it out of the turntable and strip it down (not reccomended unless you are extremely confident with such procedures).